NPR’s Scott Detrow speaks with former Canadian Overseas Minister Lloyd Axworthy about how President Trump’s rhetoric is impacting U.S.-Canada relations and the federal election happening Monday.
SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Canadians head to the polls tomorrow in an election that many imagine to be essentially the most consequential in many years. And a giant cause for that’s America’s president, Donald Trump. New tariffs have threatened to crush Canada’s economic system, which relies upon closely on U.S. commerce. And President Trump has brazenly threatened Canadian sovereignty by speaking about turning the nation into the 51st American state. All of this appears to have put Canadians on edge. And regardless of which occasion wins tomorrow, Canada’s new chief will want to consider how the nation will place itself in relation to Trump and a quickly altering world order. I talked about all of this with Lloyd Axworthy, a member of the Liberal Get together who served as minister of overseas affairs in Canada from 1996 to 2000. Today, he chairs the World Refugee & Migration Council. Once we spoke, he advised me that the robust alliance between the U.S. and Canada – a trademark of world affairs for generations – has been severely disrupted.
LLOYD AXWORTHY: A few main ruptures have taken place. One is the basic query of belief. That is the lubricant that makes issues occur. And we have at all times had this trusting relationship, and now it is misplaced. And what quite a lot of Canadians imagine, and I simply – you already know, I had a dinner with a gaggle of pals final evening who principally mentioned, what bothers them most is that over – what? – 70 million People voted for Donald Trump figuring out that he had these sorts of actually extremist positions and are nonetheless supporting him. I imply, I do know his approval rankings, I assume, are coming down. However that actually implies that how, sooner or later, can we belief? – ‘trigger it is clear that the form of democratic safeguards that have been put in place by the Structure are simply being overridden.
So it will take a while, and it will take some – a really totally different opening. However I believe it may occur. Let me simply say, I imply, once I was overseas minister of Canada, I assume one among my finest pals was Madeleine Albright. We had some variations, definitely. However we additionally labored cooperatively collectively to guarantee that issues like salmon and water and commerce and so forth have been working properly. We do not stroll round with a chip on our shoulder. However the provocation, I believe, is there.
DETROW: While you’re speaking a few menace, once you’re speaking about rhetoric about land acquisition, once you’re speaking about robust measures, these are all fairly severe phrases that generally result in very severe penalties. On the far excessive of issues, we’re speaking in regards to the issues that wars begin round. How a lot worse do you assume the connection between america and Canada – as unusual of a query as that is to ask – may get?
AXWORTHY: Nicely, I believe one of many methods that Canadian governments might be following is we do not wish to get into form of a scorching battle with america, however we might be working very actively to develop collaboration with different international locations. Mexico is an efficient instance, however there are different international locations all over the world who’re feeling the influence of Mr. Trump’s form of aggressiveness.
You would be amazed, Scott, to see how Canadians have responded. We – all of the bourbon and American wine are off the cabinets. Individuals are promoting their condos in Florida. Individuals are now not form of shopping for American merchandise. And it is only a – it is a full-scale form of protest, and I believe the election itself will solidify that. It’s going to unify Canadians round that. And subsequently, I believe the American authorities and Mr. Trump and his administration must cope with a really unified and really form of strongly decided nation of 40 million individuals who say we’re not accepting this sort of aggression and intervention.
DETROW: Can I simply take a step again – and I wish to ask you about one thing I used to be interested by. The final query I requested you is, what do you concentrate on the prospect of an American-Canadian battle? You’re the former overseas secretary of Canada. You are speaking about your shut relationship with Madeleine Albright, the shut relationship between the U.S. and Canada. How does it really feel to even be having this theoretical dialog? It simply looks like such an odd factor to be asking about.
AXWORTHY: Oh, I do know. It is – Scott, it is surreal. I imply, I do not – thought that I might ever needed to be engaged in this sort of dialog. Canadians are – first, they’re indignant, however they’re additionally unhappy. And we’re additionally studying the way to adapt, I imply, in a approach. I wrote an article for one of many main newspapers that we have now to have a look at Ukraine as a cautionary story. And I keep in mind as soon as assembly with a senior Ukrainian chief who requested me the query. He mentioned, look, it – how is it that you just dwell subsequent to a giant, highly effective nation, and also you appear to get alongside? And my reply was, properly, do it cautiously.
However we’re now in the identical state of affairs in a approach that Ukraine is. We’re dwelling subsequent door to a authorities that appears to be hell-bent on enlargement, of intimidation and of getting its personal approach and would not – shouldn’t be clearly keen on cooperative efforts, which I believe is so in contrast to, I believe, what we have been used to coping with in numerous administrations from the totally different events. I believe Mr. Trump’s administration is actually, I assume, what they name a black unicorn.
DETROW: Clearly, there’s the large commerce between the 2 international locations on the border. What else is the most important factor to you that’s misplaced right here if this tense relationship continues?
AXWORTHY: I assume as someone who has spent quite a lot of time in worldwide issues, the withdrawal of america from cooperative relationships with international locations and governments that share their values – this sort of isolationism, this pulling again, this appeared choice to play in the identical sandbox as Putin and Xi Jinping and the opposite form of authoritarians, I imply, it is a – it truly is form of gorgeous for these exterior to see simply what is occurring. Personally, I query whether or not I may cross the border with out being apprehended.
DETROW: Actually? That is a severe concern?
AXWORTHY: Sure, it’s a – there are – there already are cautionary advisories going out as a result of they – what we’re seeing is that border safety, in the event that they ask you to present over the cellphone, and so they test it out and say that someone – you make a remark in regards to the president of america, who is aware of the place you are going to find yourself? I imply, I believe this growing effort to beat primary guidelines and legal guidelines and coverings is having a big impact. And we had actually robust ranges of connection, and we may find yourself having a really chilly and frosty border, which I believe can be to the detriment of each of us.
DETROW: Lloyd Axworthy is former Canadian minister of overseas affairs and is now the chair of the World Refugee & Migration Council. Thanks a lot for, I assume, speaking to this American on this second and serving to us perceive how Canadians are viewing this second in time.
AXWORTHY: Nicely, I respect the chance to do it. Thanks very a lot.
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